Chen tai chi - interview with Ma

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Copyright: Pai Hui Ke Enterprises 1990
Lineage Transmission
Chen Tai Chi: An Interview withMaster Ma Hong
Conducted By: Andrea Cheng
In May of this year, we had the great opportunity to interview Master Ma Hong, of Chen Style Tai Chi, while he was visiting from China.
This is our first official foray into the other internal arts to appear in the Hsing I Journal pages. We intend to make an effort over time to include representatives from all the other internal arts possible, as we believe them to be truly inseparable. Although our primary focus shall remain Hsing I.
We would like to extend our gratitude to Master George Xu, for allowing us to conduct this interview in his home while Master Ma Hong was visiting. And for helping with his comments during the interview process.
We hope you enjoy this truly lucid man and his thoughts about internal practice. This interview was translated from the original Mandarin.
Ed.

HJ: Could we trouble you to take a moment and relate your history of study? Your Shr Fu?
One of the most famous practitioners of Chen T'ai Chi Ch'uan is Chen Fah Ke. I studied with the son of Chen Fah Ke, Chen Dao Kuei. Chen Fah Ke was a seventeenth-generation master. Our teacher then was eighteenth generation.

HJ: And you?
Nineteenth generation.
George Xu: He isn't just an ordinary student. He is considered to be an "inner-door" student, more valuable. He is a nineteenth generation master. His teacher is representative of the whole Chen style in China. Very, very famous. He wrote three books.

HJ: You wrote three books about... T'ai Chi Ch'uan?
Yes, yes.

HJ: Do you still have a lot of students?
Yes.

HJ: How long have you been teaching?
Let's see... No earlier than `76. Because before then, I wasn't teaching. What was most important to me was studying with my teacher. I felt that there was so much to study, one couldn't study it all. T'ai Chi Ch'uan is very rich in content.

HJ: True.
I always felt there was just so much to study. I still feel that I am a student! (laughter). I still feel that I am making progress, growing.

HJ: About when did you begin studying?
I started in... with T'ai Chi Ch'uan... I started in 1962. Thirty three years. With this most recent teacher, I started in 1972.

HJ: 1972...
Yes, I started with Chen Dao Kuei in 1972. Originally, I was studying with some of my friends. But what we did wasn't very standard. In the end, I wanted to study Chen T'ai Chi more precisely, more deeply, so I joined with Chen Dao Kuei.

HJ: What in your opinion are some of the most important aspects of study?
Hsing I, Pa Kua, T'ai Chi: they all have one thing in common. And that is the most important thing: gang ru hsiang ji. (Hardness and softness in close succession) Pa Kua is also this way. I understand this, but I don't practice it at all. The same with Hsing I: I know a little bit about it, I learned a little bit. But for the most part I studied T'ai Chi Ch'uan.
Now, as to the T'ai Chi that is popular these days, there are two kinds: one kind is too soft.

HJ: What kind is that?
I'd rather not say. If I say, people might get upset. Without my saying, people should know which kind it is. Very slow, very soft. It has lost its martial aspects. Its basis. Originally, T'ai Chi Ch'uan was a martial art.

HJ: So, in your point of view, there's... what we do, Chen T'ai Chi, which is like the main stream, and there are also off-shoots from Chen T'ai Chi which are, in your opinion, too soft, placing more emphasis on health, holistic benefits rather than martial benefits? You are a firm believer in the martial aspects of the art?
Now there are many different types of T'ai Chi which are very popular. Yang style, Wu style, Sun style, Chang style; many different types. But the character of each of these is different. Different in what way? In my opinion, there are some that tend to be too soft, and others which tend to be too hard. This is my opinion. I believe that which was taught by my teacher was just the right combination of hardness and softness. He spoke of Yin and Yang, T'ai Chi Yin Yang. He said that T'ai Chi must have hard, soft must have fast and slow, have insubstantial and substantial, open and closed. Also it must have... oh, there's just so much..., "I, Ch'i, Li", all of these must be combined together. That which is closed must be opened, and that which is opened must be closed. Entirely open is not good, and entirely closed is not good. (Demonstrates posture examples) Therefore I believe that which was transmitted by my teacher was more fitting to what was the original face of T'ai Chi Ch'uan.
So, in addition to benefiting health, T'ai Chi must also have its martial worth. Our teacher taught not only each posture, but broke down the function, the martial use of each posture.

HJ: So, do you believe that form follows function, or does function follow form? Do you first learn the movements, and then the functions?
The two are one and the same.

HJ: But which do you study first?
The movements, the forms. At first the teacher does not talk about the use of the postures. Slowly, after your movements are very correct, then the teacher can discuss why they are the way they are. How to use them. First achieve precision in movement.

HJ: When you teach students, in the beginning, do you first teach form?
Correct.

HJ: You teach them to be soft?
Gang ru hsiang ji. (Hardness and softness in close succession.)

HJ: At the same time.
Yes. The student has some movements... how do I explain... which are soft, but not truly soft. Do you understand?

HJ: Could you please elaborate a little?
For instance, a certain movement may look soft, but there is still force in it. But this force, this strength is not a hard strength; it is a "soft" strength. It is a flexible strength. You can expand it, or you can contract it. It is a spiral force. So here, there is both strength and relaxed softness. Only in this way can you have gang ru hsiang ji. If it is all hard, then it is not T'ai Chi. If it is completely soft with no strength, this is not good either.

HJ: How are your students able to study this kind of softness?
The first step: allow them to be too soft. Let them concern themselves with precision in movement. Where does this hand go? Where is this foot placed? Let them become very clear on these points. From where to where? From what point to what point? After that, you can teach the student to relax, and teach them the meanings, the applications of the movements. Step by step. You want to break things up into different steps. The first step, copy the forms, the appearances. The next step, teach him the internal aspects. Where is the strength in this movement? Is it here? Is it there? Where is the strength? This is the internal aspect. Next, you can teach application. Why am I hitting this way? What is the purpose behind this movement? The fourth step is to teach strength, power.

HJ: And how do you teach that?
There are several different ways. Solo single form, Twi shou, Long pole, Standing postures, many more methods.

HJ: Could you please explain?
When you practice solo form, you must practice every posture, every movement with fah jing. It is soft, yet instantly hard. When you practice fah jing, like these (demonstrates a strong issuing force while exhaling sharply). There is another part; that is, teaching how to transmit power. You must understand this, must understand power. T'ai Chi is about yin and yang; this is its underlying theory. Besides that, you must also study medicine, anatomy, military strategy..., Also, when you practice, the forms must look good artistically. When other people watch you, they must feel very comfortable. All of this is important. The end goal of practice is that your strength be relaxed, lively and springy.
With the whole body, you must be flexible. You have to utilize your whole body, use proper body kinetics, and you have to be loose... It has to come from your legs, your waist, your spine, your shoulders, point by point. Even though sometimes you have to strike with your elbow, or the forearm, the whole power is still there, extending all the way. Like a spiral.

HJ: When you teach your students, at first, you teach them section by section...?
Posture by posture, movement by movement. Our teacher taught in a very detailed manner. Because every movement has its hidden meaning. There is nothing that is empty.

HJ: In your opinion, as to those styles of T'ai Chi which are now very popular, why do they not fah jing in their solo forms practice?
Originally, in Yang style and Wu style, they also used to practice fah jing. When Yang passed the style on to his son, they still would fah jing. But then, from the third generation on - Yang's third generation, Wu's second generation - they no longer practiced fah jing. After the Manchurians unified China, the nobles who practiced were unwilling to expend that kind of energy; they were interested purely in the "health" aspects of the art. So they got rid of these stricter requirements and softened everything.
But the Chen style is the oldest, the most ancient. So it still contains a richness of martial content. Hsing I ch'uan is the same. Some people practice it very softly and cannot fah jing. Then there are others who practice it very hard, with a lot of strength. That just comes from different practitioners, different lineages.

HJ: Discuss with us if you will what you think the key components are that make a good internal boxer.
(Master Ma, speaking to George Xu) You go ahead and tell them. Tell them the things that we emphasize.)

George Xu: The Chen style is a very complete system. So they are not only want muscle, they want be muscle, bone, ligament, tendon, internal energy, spiritually, they want all to be well trained. Complete. That's why they have a requirement of a minimum of 20 principles to be good quality. The first one, they want one move, everything move. Because this way, you can gather in your maximum physical power, to issue your power or redirect your enemy's power. Not just use a part of body to do it. It's just like a dog. when you see a dog fight, you never see a dog just use the front to protect the other dog's attack, The whole body. One move. Everything.
The second one is, if you want to be good at T'ai Chi, it has to be not use your hand and foot through the waist. You have to use the whole body through the waist. And that's the minimum requirement. And the whole body do the movement, plus in the future, is your spiritual movement; your body is just the form.
And the third one is the waist is the main power. The waist area - dan tien - waist area. And the spine. You need special training on the waist, and dan tien and the spine spiral. The waist turning, spine rotate. In Chen T'ai Chi, this is very emphasize.
Yes, this is very important.

George Xu: Number four is... nei Ch'i. Internal energy has to be full. A lot of people it's ... uh... weak, you know. It's like a tire. They only have five pounds pressure. So when the people attack you, you get hurt. See, the high-level T'ai Chi master, the internal energy is like 50 pound in 30 pound tire: you kick the tire, you fly out. So their internal energy is full. But once the internal energy is full, like a rubber man full of air: you cannot become separate. If you were not full of energy, you'd become flat, soft. If full of energy, it cannot be flattened.

The fifth, is T'ai Chi high-level. It must be each joint connect. And all the power come from Earth. You know, start from Earth, from the feet, and controlled by waist, and delivered to the fist. In between the alignment must be connect.

The sixth is to have a great range of motion. And... because a lot of people, they don't have... the joint don't have a great range of motion, so when they go low they cannot go any lower. They go to big stance, they cannot go any bigger. So it's like a tire that can only go to 30 mph or 20 mph... it is very short distance, never cover long distance. So you should be able to short, long. [ Repeats all of this in Chinese to Ma:. Then master Ma adds something which he translates...] Skin, bone, muscle, has to be loose. The shoulder has to be like a soy bean milk. Internal ch'i has to be... you know... moving.

Number seven is also the internal... the invisible power training. Because a lot of people can issue visible power, but at invisible power, short distance power, they are not very good. So the high level T'ai Chi master, the whole body is fixed, so anybody touch them, they can issue this invisible power. So this is the ligament power, most of it is not muscle power anymore, it is ligament power, and also internal breathing power. So that's two powers in this special training.
And number eight is a high-level one. They do the form, or they fight, they have strong "I", you know, the internal has the "I" (intention). Outside they have a animal shape. A lot of people, their form is like a human body, the "I" is calm and sleepy, so they never get the high level. So you want to be a good, you know, a great T'ai Chi boxer, it has to be. you know. you need to externally carry form, and internally carry "I". So the internal and external has to be powerful.

A specialty in T'ai Chi is whenever they have opening, they have inside somewhere close, whenever have close, inside somewhere open. So a lot of people they just, when they open, everything open, like a ballet dancer, when they close, everything close. So this way they are not creating opposing power. In this way make the whole body have Yin Yang balance. Otherwise you only have yang, no yin, or you only have yin, no yang. And that's no good. You not yin yang balance.

And number ten is opposing power. So whenever you have front power, you must. like when you push the cart, you hand push forward, you must have back power. Whenever you have up power -- you lift things - you have down power. So it's always opposing power inside your body. All the time.
And number eleven is T'ai Chi is mainly eight words. We call opening, close, empty, full, spiral, turn, and up, down. A lot of people they opening close, but not empty full at the same time, or up down, spiral turn at the same time. So when the Chen style. especially Chen style. they are very emphasize this: eight words at the same time, all the time, everywhere.

Number twelve is no center. A lot of people they either leaning forward, or back, you know. they never on the center. Looking for your own center, understanding your own center is a whole lifetime job. Because only when you have center, you have the best structure, you can have maximum power. So the center is very important. The one thing you need to understand your own power. Because you have center you can take care of eighty men, everywhere you have power. Instead of one-dimensional power.

Number thirteen is not all the movement all the way. A lot of people they do movement, they just open here (demonstrates), they not all the way, you know, they just punch to here, they never can reach anybody. Like Tiger, chase all the way, he never just half way. So when he close. Really close, not just close a little bit. All the way, so you get maximum exercise.

Number fourteen. is don't know what is a yin and a yang. A lot of people practice kung fu, they either too much yang, not enough yin. So they are push hands or fighting, they just want to use their own power. They don't care where your power. They don't understand how to borrow enemy's power or use enemy's power. When you want to use or borrow enemy's power, or to even create some power, make them give you more power, you must understand emptiness.

Another one is that most people have no Si, presence. Not alive enough. So they don't have. like water, just like a lake of water, very peaceful, very smooth, but not like a wave crashing of the surf. Si is the presence, or the potential energy, before they hit you. Like a rock on the top of mountain: stay there is no Si. One day rolling down the middle of your mountain, carry lot of dust and, you know, stone. That time this rock has Si, ok? So a lot of T'ai Chi, they don't have Si, because they don't practice single movements. Like this movement (demonstrates). But if you just do this, there's no Si. It's not alive enough.

Another one is. uh. the most of people not get meat. What mean is that. you know, when you unscrewdriver things. you want to take off the bolt, or you have to get that thing. if you slip, you don't get anything. So that mean you do the form, you must get to the jing. Like when you push the car, you get power, you get meat, so you know you can push. Otherwise, slippery ground, you don't get meat, you later cannot use any power. That mean you don't get anything. So when you do form, same thing. If the posture, you don't feel has power, you don't feel you get strength, that mean this movement too slippery. You have no meat, and then you don't develop any strength.

The highest level, I will say, he is suddenly fast, suddenly slow, suddenly soft, suddenly hard, suddenly disappear, suddenly appear. And that's what T'ai Chi is: soft like water, hard like ice, disappear like steam. So they have all these qualities. You say he is soft; he is softer than you. You say he hard, he is harder than you. You say he don't have soft, he have soft inside. You say he. he. he too hard, but he has soft inside. So. whenever he want soft, he can have soft, whenever he want hard, he can have the hard. And inside the soft they have the hard, inside the hard, they have soft. So all these things can be quick changed.

Have great range of motion, in between the soft and hard. Not just soft or hard. This is the middle line of the soft and hard. Lot of people either go that way too far, or go that way too far. All in between very little short range. The high level is great range of soft and hard. So if he is harder than you, softer than you, you want hard, you can go that way. You want soft, you can go that way. And very natural and soft, natural smooth. But also is not like a peaceful water: you're always like an ocean wave, and. you know. look like you are very peaceful, some sometimes can be a very big wave, throw your boat down. So have great, threatening energy - Si. I think. mainly. of course more than this, but I don't want to talk more. That's enough (chuckles).

HJ: Thank you. That was great: very detailed!
Chinese wu shu (martial arts) is now very lacking in detailed, systemic study. On the one hand, we must continue to propagate our art; on the other, what we must now undertake is scientific study. That is, which kind of wu shu is the must "scientific"; is must fitting for physical training, is must fitting for health. And we must approach this in a very scientific manner; not necessarily talking about yin, yang, chi; abstract things. We must be very scientific. America. in my opinion. America is a country in which science is very well developed. It would be wonderful if America would use some of this ability to study Chinese martial arts.

We are now trying to adopt a certain type of attitude towards T'ai Chi Ch'uan. On one hand, we want to spread the art, and on the other, we want to investigate it, research it. We also want to look into other forms of martial arts. Hsing I, Pa Kua, all of these we also want to investigate. But we want to establish which style is most scientific, must suitable to study, is best at protecting one's self. Now, there are some types of kung fu that tend to concentrate only on external strength, not talking about yang sheng, enriching and lengthening one's life. So, because of this, the life of the art is very short. There are others which concern themselves only with yang sheng, and not with more martial aspects. Nevertheless, we would also like to study these martial art benefits of health preservation and physical protection.

As to T'ai Chi Ch'uan, Chen T'ai Chi, it's a better style of T'ai Chi Ch'uan. It not only develops the body, it develops the mind. This is something many people don't know.

HJ: Could you please expand on that a little bit?
In studying T'ai Chi Ch'uan. sometimes we're very nervous, tense, have a lot on our minds. Today I'm here, tomorrow I'll be there. all very stressed. Some people's nerves are really on edge. They cannot relax. However, in practicing T'ai Chi Ch'uan, you must relax. Your entire body must relax. In this form that we study, there are eighty-three postures. Eighty-three postures. That's what our teacher passed on to us. Over three-hundred movements. Every moment of every movement is regulated very strictly; you cannot deviate at all. You must practice daily with full concentration. After you become familiar with the form, and you can free your mind to practice with full concentration, you develop both your big brain and your small brain. In this way, practicing the art, your mind becomes very clear. I used to be very sick. I was very weak. I couldn't sleep, I couldn't work. This is why I began studying the art. I was thirty-five. Now I am sixty-nine years old. Although I still feel as though I am thirty six. That benefit came from my practice. I practice T'ai Chi Ch'uan every day. Form my thirty years of experience, I can tell you that T'ai Chi Ch'uan is marvelous.

HJ: You've practiced T'ai Chi for so many years. Every style has its own method. There is a certain method to Hsing I, to Pa Kua. Could you please compare styles for us? Compare Chen T'ai Chi and Hsing I. In you opinion, what are the differences between them? Their similarities? There must also be many similarities between Chen T'ai Chi and Pa Kua; what do you think?

My opinion.? They have much in common. Hsing I, Pa Kua, and T'ai Chi were all developed from the Chinese theory of yin and yang. It's just that their forms, their shapes are not the same. Their character is not the same. Hsing I Ch'uan tends toward more linear. Pa Kua tends toward circular. T'ai Chi Ch'uan contains both Spiral and Hard and Soft in close succession. Even though their outward appearances are different, at the highest levels their demands are the same, and that is a proper balance of hard and soft. All emphasize the unification of mind and body. Heart, ch'i, and spirit. Your form and spirit are in Harmony. It isn't possible to say which one is better: study whichever one you like.

George Xu: I study T'ai chi. It seems to me that Hsing I develops wai ch'i, external ch'i. It is based on animal movements, and so more stresses external form. Because of this, it is easy to tend toward being too hard. If there is no internal training, it is very easy to be tough and strong. T'ai Chi, because in the beginning is soft, relaxed, to get the whole body. you know. coordination. So it very easy to go to the soft direction. So that's why a lot of time Hsing I most people is very hard, and T'ai Chi is very soft. But actually, to the highest level, they work on both. And Pa Kua is the same thing. Pa Kua is a lot of people is just walking a circle, you know, doing a circle motion. But also has lot of training, lot of internal training. So finally is similar. But the way. Pa Kua more focus centrifugal force. More than Hsing I. Hsing I more focus on the. you know. linear type, animal concepts, that kind of thing.

Their nei gong, internal work, is the same, of one direction. It's just the external shape that is different. The inner strength, they're all the same. The only difference is just the exterior; the theory's the same, the concept's the same, it's all based on the theory of yin and yang, and combine soft and hardness.

HJ: When you teach your students, how do you teach them to fah jing? In practicing T'ai Chi. in T'ai Chi there is some quality of hardness. When it comes to fah jing, how do you teach your students?

The first step is found in form. Then they progress step by step. In the first step, let them copy the rough movements, the general form; that's good enough. In the second step, I teach them how to transfer power. Because the power is external, but it is internal as well. The power is here, then it is there; how does it move?

HJ: And what about "I"? How do you teach them to have "I"?
Every movement has it. What is "I"? "I" and Ch'i unite as one. My "I", my Ch'i, where do they come from? From dan tien. It must be from dan tien. It is not from one shoulder to another. You must be clear on this point.

HJ: Everyone has different shortcomings. When they've first started, what do you teach them?
We start with the first movement! If they learn quickly, we teach them a little faster; if not so fast, we teach them a little slower. It doesn't matter what their weakness is, the first step is the same. To develop "I", you have to learn the basic posture, and continue to practice, learn where the intent is with each movement, as far as where the strike is supposed to end, and where your focus is. I do not teach either seated meditation or other exercises as some others do. I emphasizes that students continue to practice, and as they move along in their practice, they'll learn piece by piece to compete the picture. That's why different levels have different forms to train.

Different students have different needs. Some want to become doctors. Some are workers. Some are massage therapists. Some students want to know. Then what? Well, let them study meridians. In order to better understand all of this, I want to the Department of Chinese Medicine at a medical college. I became a student. At the age of fifty, I went back to school and studied meridians. Went to understand where the twelve meridians pass through the body. This is something that advanced students of T'ai Chi really must understand: understand where the ch'i flows through the body.

Knowing where the points are -- bai hui - and this other point - hui yin-so when you practice. because you know specifically where those points are, therefore it's easier for you mind to form a straight line, which straighten your spine, and that will alleviate a lot of spinal problems that could cause, or already people are suffering. That could correct that.
When you use strength from your legs, you must know the meridian "San Yang". The energy will go down "San Yang" and the energy goes toward the inside form "San Yin". So when you strike, this is energetically what happens. So when you issue energy, you must understand how to move the waist, and how the chi flows from dan tien.

HJ: Now, the last question. forgive us. Today we have asked you a lot of question, and we are very, very grateful. You have been very open and willing to speak about anything, without reservation. Do you think that there is any question that I have overlooked? Something you feel would be of interest to our readers? With regards to practicing the art? What point do you feel remains that we have not mentioned?

In my experience, if you practice T'ai Chi right, you will be more calm, you would have more patience, you can think more clear, you're not easily disrupted, you can be more focused. Basically, you're like water - very natural. Now in China, except for Tibet, and Xinhai, I have students in every province. Hong Kong, too. There are also those in Taiwan who practice. In Taiwan, magazines have published my articles, four of my articles. I am trying to spread the art and help mankind. I feel that my family - Chen family style - in particular what we do, is very scientific. Therefore it's easier to teach people, and people can profit by it much easier, so that's my goal, trying to spread the art.

There is a saying: the road that I am walking demonstrates that this style is good. I wish to continue to perpetuate the art so that it may benefit many more. I am living proof. So I would like to share that with everybody.

There are some old sayings in China: Practicing martial arts, first of all you must search for the theory and the concept behind the art. So you have to do the research. And so therefore you must also have the discipline to follow the theory and correct theory, understanding it, to be on the right track. After that, you will then abandon the superficial, that you have to go through in order to develop, and then final, you will absorb and enjoy the fruit.

There are many different Chinese martial arts. Every different kind. There are also many different styles of T'ai Chi. We need to examine them and determine which is best, most in keeping with the theory of T'ai Chi. Those that are not in keeping with this theory are not important. In China. those three books I published have become very popular. Tai Chi Magazine, that editor, he bought one. He said that of all T'ai chi books, mine are the best. That's what he said. But it's now that what I said was good, it's that what my teacher passed on to me was good.

HJ: Master Ma, you are too modest. Thank you so much for you time and insight. You are most welcome.

Master Ma is a nineteenth generation Chen Style practitioner. He has written numerous books and articles on the subjects of Chen T'ai Chi and internal power development. His effortless strength and supple movement are truly inspirational to see. We hope you found his comments enlightening. We will do more on Chen Style Tai Chi is future issues.
Ed.
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